| author |
Steve Losh <steve@stevelosh.com> |
| date |
Wed, 26 May 2010 12:34:24 -0400 |
| parents |
(none) |
| children |
(none) |
**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun May 23 01:53:01 2010
May 23 08:25:25 <canadaduane> yeah i'm glad you found that stack overflow thread
May 23 08:25:49 <canadaduane> kind of puts some objections out there for us to consider
May 23 08:26:09 <canadaduane> so...
May 23 08:26:36 <canadaduane> what do you think of my thoughts written on the github wiki?
May 23 08:26:44 <dahu> i have no objections
May 23 08:29:42 <dahu> naming scheme sounds good - i like the story idea
May 23 08:30:01 <canadaduane> ok
May 23 08:30:11 <dahu> as for vim_1.p et al, I think we can have multiple indexes
May 23 08:30:22 <dahu> you suggest something similar with your helptags idea
May 23 08:30:38 <canadaduane> yeah, well, I have a question about this area
May 23 08:30:48 <dahu> i have no objections to unfolded questions
May 23 08:31:03 <canadaduane> do we want to lump all functionality of each type of task into one practice session, or spread them out?
May 23 08:31:09 <dahu> have you ever used anki?
May 23 08:31:15 <canadaduane> for example, if we have "folding" in chapter 1
May 23 08:31:17 <canadaduane> (no)
May 23 08:31:25 <canadaduane> should we have "advanced folding" in chapter 2?
May 23 08:31:32 <canadaduane> or keep all folding practice in chapter 1
May 23 08:31:37 <dahu> no
May 23 08:31:46 <dahu> definitely progress with the belts
May 23 08:31:52 <canadaduane> ok, good
May 23 08:31:56 <dahu> advanced folding should reappear in a higher belt level
May 23 08:32:25 <canadaduane> I was thinking our objective should be to provide basic skills, and then tie them together in useful task-oriented ways
May 23 08:32:26 <dahu> as an aside, folding may not even appear in level 1
May 23 08:32:42 <canadaduane> yes, that may be a good idea :)
May 23 08:32:46 <canadaduane> kind of like vimtutor?
May 23 08:32:50 <dahu> yes
May 23 08:32:57 <canadaduane> sounds good
May 23 08:33:15 <dahu> hmm... I wonder
May 23 08:33:49 <canadaduane> so what I mean by task-oriented, is we could find clever ways to use things together, such as "comment this block of code" and "tab this block of code over by 2"
May 23 08:33:53 <canadaduane> (or whatever)
May 23 08:34:05 <dahu> each nugget is a separate concept, sometimes standalone, sometimes related to other concepts
May 23 08:34:07 <canadaduane> then we get the benefit of wiring our skills up together in the brain
May 23 08:34:11 <canadaduane> right
May 23 08:34:20 <dahu> I would like to be able to thread concepts in different ways
May 23 08:34:26 <dahu> but that might not be easy to achieve
May 23 08:34:27 <canadaduane> yes, me too
May 23 08:34:36 <canadaduane> right, because there are so many options
May 23 08:34:45 <dahu> let's say we have a big pool (right) of concepts
May 23 08:35:05 <canadaduane> yeah, basic concepts
May 23 08:35:16 <canadaduane> and then related concepts
May 23 08:35:17 <dahu> we might create a vim_1.p that has some of those concepts
May 23 08:35:29 <canadaduane> for some reason this reminds me of a game like Mortal Kombat or something
May 23 08:35:31 <dahu> and then a vim_patterns.p that has some of the same concepts plus others
May 23 08:35:38 <canadaduane> where you learn some basic punches and kicks
May 23 08:35:43 <canadaduane> and then get powerful with the combos
May 23 08:35:44 <canadaduane> lol
May 23 08:35:57 <dahu> (hehe... haven't played games since 2nd year in uni ^_^ )
May 23 08:36:14 <dahu> but the story is powerful
May 23 08:36:20 <dahu> and if people want to think of it like that
May 23 08:36:25 <dahu> then it will help their learning
May 23 08:36:28 <dahu> which is all good
May 23 08:36:46 <canadaduane> what is vim_patterns.practice? (sorry, I didn't quite understand)
May 23 08:36:55 <dahu> pattern matching
May 23 08:37:03 <dahu> I was thinking of having separate paths
May 23 08:37:11 <canadaduane> oh, I thought we were going to move away from topics
May 23 08:37:11 <dahu> one path might be for newbies
May 23 08:37:14 <canadaduane> in the filenames?
May 23 08:37:19 <dahu> numbered as in vim_1, _2, etc
May 23 08:37:50 <dahu> other paths might be names after the concepts they teach (for more advanced users who now know *what* they want to focus on)
May 23 08:37:57 <dahu> named*
May 23 08:38:01 <canadaduane> Ah, I see
May 23 08:38:15 <canadaduane> so we have the color belts for the first round, then separate tracks?
May 23 08:38:24 <dahu> well... in martial arts
May 23 08:38:29 <dahu> the colours are for newbies
May 23 08:38:40 <canadaduane> even black?
May 23 08:38:46 <dahu> the black belts have their own separate ranks, called dans
May 23 08:38:52 <canadaduane> oh, ok
May 23 08:38:53 <dahu> usually around 9 dans
May 23 08:39:37 <dahu> we don't have to copy that exactly, but maybe the named threads could be considered for either advanced users...
May 23 08:39:45 <canadaduane> idea: why not use .vimkata as the filetype?
May 23 08:39:47 <dahu> or a different way to approach the learning
May 23 08:39:55 <dahu> for example, what level do you or I jump in at?
May 23 08:40:01 <dahu> Are we a 2 or a 3 or a 4?
May 23 08:40:11 <dahu> I know I wanna know more about x, though...
May 23 08:40:11 <canadaduane> I'm not sure
May 23 08:40:16 <canadaduane> I see
May 23 08:40:26 <canadaduane> hmm
May 23 08:48:49 <canadaduane> ok, so I think I'm following your plan
May 23 08:49:00 <canadaduane> basically we'll have a bunch of "beginner" files
May 23 08:49:03 <dahu> yep
May 23 08:49:16 <dahu> and they can just be numbered
May 23 08:49:16 <canadaduane> but these will become fairly broad in topics, as you suggested in the original txt file
May 23 08:49:20 <dahu> (and coloured)
May 23 08:49:49 <canadaduane> and then we'll branch off into more advanced topics from there
May 23 08:49:54 <canadaduane> so what should the filetype be?
May 23 08:50:04 <canadaduane> .vimkata? .practice? .vimpractice?
May 23 08:50:13 <dahu> .kata
May 23 08:50:26 <canadaduane> I like it
May 23 08:50:32 <canadaduane> short and simple :)
May 23 08:50:33 <dahu> sorry - that was just a brainstorm
May 23 08:50:39 <dahu> not concrete :-)
May 23 08:50:41 <dahu> but yes
May 23 08:50:43 <dahu> it is short
May 23 08:50:47 <dahu> and to the point...
May 23 08:50:50 <dahu> does it clash?
May 23 08:51:25 <canadaduane> i think it goes well with the project name
May 23 08:51:47 <dahu> agreed
May 23 08:53:13 <canadaduane> how long should it take to do a kata file (for the user)?
May 23 08:53:35 <dahu> hmm... good question...
May 23 08:53:42 <canadaduane> 20 min?
May 23 08:53:44 <dahu> it will depend on the grade, of course
May 23 08:53:48 <dahu> seems reasonable
May 23 08:53:56 <dahu> just asking around. hangon.
May 23 08:54:23 <dahu> anki sets a 20 min learning session by default
May 23 08:54:24 <canadaduane> also, is that time target for the "first time" or the "last time"?
May 23 08:54:27 <dahu> my wife suggests 15 - 20
May 23 08:54:34 <dahu> good point
May 23 08:54:57 <dahu> hmm..
May 23 08:55:03 <canadaduane> so maybe for intermediate
May 23 08:55:05 <dahu> i'd say that should be the learn time...
May 23 08:55:14 <dahu> the goal time should be *much* quicker
May 23 08:55:16 <dahu> right?
May 23 08:55:25 <canadaduane> right
May 23 08:56:16 <canadaduane> I think we could say something like this though: "Each kata will take you about 20 minutes, but possibly longer for your first attempt. If you reach 5 minutes or less, you've mastered it."
May 23 08:56:28 <dahu> that sounds good
May 23 08:57:02 <canadaduane> so this time target actually limits us quite a bit with our "belts" idea
May 23 08:57:09 <canadaduane> what we can pack into 20 minutes for a beginner
May 23 08:57:13 <dahu> maybe
May 23 08:57:18 <canadaduane> might not be the full scope of everything you mentioned in the .txt
May 23 08:57:30 <canadaduane> but anyway, I think it's a good target
May 23 08:57:34 <canadaduane> so we should work with it
May 23 08:57:36 <dahu> no - just have less nuggets in the file
May 23 08:57:38 <canadaduane> and split things out as necessary
May 23 08:57:45 <dahu> agreed
May 23 08:58:46 <dahu> as you go up in levels, your skills will be improving, so you're faster at doing the simpler things (covered in lower belt levels)
May 23 08:59:10 <canadaduane> right
May 23 08:59:11 <canadaduane> good point
May 23 08:59:19 <canadaduane> Great! I'm pumped
May 23 08:59:26 <canadaduane> this is going to be really useful
May 23 09:00:38 <dahu> me too. It sounds good. I've wanted to do a project like this for a while now
May 23 09:00:49 <dahu> I never thought it would be based on vim, though. lol
May 23 09:00:54 <canadaduane> heh
May 23 09:01:04 <dahu> I mean, I've wanted to do an OSS project
May 23 09:01:05 <canadaduane> oh, btw, I have seen anki before
May 23 09:01:13 <canadaduane> I haven't used it, but something similar called spicy elephant
May 23 09:01:18 <dahu> cool. I use it to study Chinese
May 23 09:01:24 <canadaduane> nice
May 23 09:02:01 <dahu> i was dreaming of incorporating some of the spaced repetition algorithms into our learning paths
May 23 09:02:51 <canadaduane> wow, that would be quite something... in vim
May 23 09:03:01 <canadaduane> hey so the github issue tracker has upvoting
May 23 09:03:04 <canadaduane> so i was thinking...
May 23 09:03:14 <canadaduane> we could go around the vim wiki collecting tidbits
May 23 09:03:19 <canadaduane> and also invite others to help out
May 23 09:03:36 <canadaduane> and then use the issue tracker as a way of both voting on what should be included and making corrections
May 23 09:03:37 <dahu> you might have to explain more - upvoting?
May 23 09:03:41 <dahu> ok
May 23 09:03:42 <dahu> ic
May 23 09:03:53 <canadaduane> not at first of course
May 23 09:03:58 <canadaduane> we need to make a skeleton ourselves
May 23 09:04:02 <dahu> agreed
May 23 09:04:08 <canadaduane> but the community has so much to offer here
May 23 09:04:18 <dahu> we might go through a few iterations before we're happy
May 23 09:04:24 <canadaduane> I am a very small "vim user" :)
May 23 09:04:28 <dahu> let's do that inside the fence before inviting a crowd :-)
May 23 09:04:34 <canadaduane> sounds good
May 23 09:04:49 <dahu> i have spoken to some of the #vim gurus about deliberate practice
May 23 09:04:54 <dahu> and it falls on deaf ears
May 23 09:05:05 <canadaduane> interesting, but that's fine
May 23 09:05:06 <dahu> but I think, if we build it, they will come :-)
May 23 09:05:21 <canadaduane> they don't have to recognize a great thing until it slaps them in the face
May 23 09:05:22 <canadaduane> hehe
May 23 09:05:26 <canadaduane> what you said
May 23 09:05:28 <canadaduane> :)
May 23 09:05:48 <canadaduane> So it sounds like my original file format is going to work pretty much as is?
May 23 09:05:56 <canadaduane> We'll keep the answers folded
May 23 09:05:59 <canadaduane> but the questions open
May 23 09:06:00 <dahu> oh
May 23 09:06:02 <dahu> one thing
May 23 09:06:05 <canadaduane> sure
May 23 09:06:12 <dahu> not sure if I like the leading > in the answers...
May 23 09:06:16 <dahu> wanna explain the point?
May 23 09:06:31 <canadaduane> it was only for making it a different color
May 23 09:06:47 <dahu> the folded answer block not obvious enough? ;-)
May 23 09:06:47 <canadaduane> but I'm happy with anything that makes it easy to read and differentiate
May 23 09:07:29 <canadaduane> Actually, there might be a good use for some kind of marker
May 23 09:07:40 <canadaduane> I noticed you provided some alternate answers
May 23 09:07:44 <canadaduane> and that made sense to me
May 23 09:07:53 <canadaduane> I think we should have a "canonical" answer
May 23 09:07:57 <canadaduane> and then 1 or 2 alternates
May 23 09:07:59 <dahu> yep - I'd like to separate them - so it's clear they are alternates
May 23 09:08:04 <dahu> fine
May 23 09:08:04 <canadaduane> right
May 23 09:08:06 <dahu> sounds good
May 23 09:08:12 <canadaduane> so maybe that could be the purpose of color coding there
May 23 09:08:32 <canadaduane> how should we designate the lines that are "canonical"? with a ">" ?
May 23 09:08:32 <dahu> one colour for the definitive answer? a separate colour for alternates?
May 23 09:08:37 <canadaduane> right
May 23 09:08:41 <canadaduane> that's what I was thinking
May 23 09:08:44 <dahu> urgh.... lemme think about it...
May 23 09:08:47 <dahu> can I just dump a few crazy ideas I've had about this on you? I'm not suggesting that we can implement all of these, or maybe any...
May 23 09:08:53 <canadaduane> sure
May 23 09:08:58 <dahu> idea 1:
May 23 09:09:08 <dahu> executing the definitive answer
May 23 09:09:14 <dahu> do this on the 'practice' block
May 23 09:09:23 <dahu> as a demonstration of workingness
May 23 09:09:32 <dahu> crazy idea 2: timing
May 23 09:09:46 <dahu> have the user start his practice session which kicks off a timer
May 23 09:09:57 <dahu> when he's done, he's shown the time
May 23 09:10:21 <dahu> there are more CI, but when I explain one, the others flee :-)
May 23 09:10:31 <canadaduane> heh
May 23 09:10:53 <canadaduane> I like idea 1
May 23 09:10:58 <canadaduane> idea 2, not sure if it's important
May 23 09:11:43 <dahu> idea 2: hmm... only in that it might serve as nice feedback. Well done, you're 3 minutes under your personal best today! that sort of thing...
May 23 09:11:58 <canadaduane> I see
May 23 09:12:14 <dahu> initially I didn't like your > because I thought it might clash with idea 1
May 23 09:12:20 <dahu> but now I see it will actually help
May 23 09:12:27 <dahu> so, liking the > now :-)
May 23 09:12:56 <canadaduane> what I meant was it might not be important for us to implement as part of the practice since people can time themselves
May 23 09:13:04 <canadaduane> but maybe as a feature later on...
May 23 09:13:15 <dahu> of course
May 23 09:13:33 <canadaduane> you know what
May 23 09:13:35 <canadaduane> I take that all back
May 23 09:13:38 <canadaduane> timing is really important
May 23 09:13:44 <canadaduane> that's one of the reasons DP works
May 23 09:13:50 <dahu> ok
May 23 09:13:53 <dahu> that sounds fair
May 23 09:13:56 <canadaduane> you have to have a clear objective
May 23 09:14:05 <canadaduane> what are we trying to help users do? lower their time
May 23 09:14:25 <dahu> ok - an objectives brainstorm
May 23 09:14:33 <dahu> lower times
May 23 09:14:39 <dahu> increase knowledge
May 23 09:14:43 <dahu> (skills)
May 23 09:15:27 <canadaduane> right
May 23 09:15:29 <dahu> identify bad habbits
May 23 09:15:34 <dahu> and correct them
May 23 09:16:00 <dahu> hmm... just had another crazy idea... but it reminds me too much of the paperclip to even utter it :-)
May 23 09:26:28 <dahu> you mentioned taking stuff from the vim wiki, which I fully agree with. This vim tips page also has an unordered mess of useful nuggets too: http://rayninfo.co.uk/vimtips.html
May 23 09:26:49 <dahu> but we'll want to be... judicious about checking our facts.
May 23 09:28:12 <dahu> some of the #vim gurus criticise the vim wiki as being populated by newbies as they discover a new vim trick, quite often not showing the full story or abusing a tool for an unintended purpose (missing the canonical tool vim does provide for that purpose)
May 23 09:28:24 <dahu> just saying, we need to make sure we're promoting good practice
May 23 09:28:34 <dahu> best, even, where appropriate
May 23 09:37:28 <canadaduane> back
May 23 09:37:42 <canadaduane> I agree with everything you said while I was away :)
May 23 09:38:12 <canadaduane> so your talk of objectives reminded me of a "touch typing" course I took in high school
May 23 09:38:21 <canadaduane> it was actually very much like this DP idea
May 23 09:38:25 <canadaduane> and it had some similar objectives
May 23 09:38:53 <canadaduane> I had forgotten about the "identify bad habits"-related objective of "minimizing typing mistakes"
May 23 09:38:58 <canadaduane> I think this is an important one as well
May 23 09:39:03 <dahu> agreed
May 23 09:39:08 <canadaduane> the way they integrated the idea
May 23 09:39:13 <canadaduane> was by penalizing the time for mistakes
May 23 09:39:28 <canadaduane> so if you were typing at a good 90 WPM but made several mistakes and had to back up and re-type
May 23 09:39:32 <canadaduane> you were double-penalized
May 23 09:39:33 <dahu> i think there is a lot of overlap with these ideas over the years, but I hadn't put them together until recently - reading Ericsson's stuff
May 23 09:39:42 <dahu> right
May 23 09:39:53 <canadaduane> Can you point me to a link?
May 23 09:39:57 <dahu> and that was my last crazy idea - of having vim 'watch' you and comment...
May 23 09:40:08 <dahu> but like I said, paperclip territory. :-/
May 23 09:40:44 <canadaduane> yes, we'll have to see
May 23 09:41:31 <canadaduane> is it possible to create a vim plugin like you seek?
May 23 09:41:47 <canadaduane> Compiled C code perhaps?
May 23 09:42:11 <dahu> I guess it doesn't really matter what language it's in
May 23 09:42:18 <dahu> C might be better for pure portability purposes
May 23 09:42:21 <dahu> do you Ruby?
May 23 09:42:24 <canadaduane> yeah
May 23 09:42:31 <dahu> cool
May 23 09:42:44 <canadaduane> Vim plugins can be written in Ruby?
May 23 09:42:56 <dahu> maybe we could cut early stuff in ruby - as a good... (yep) proving ground
May 23 09:43:06 <canadaduane> interesting
May 23 09:43:15 <canadaduane> you'll have to lead the way there, but I'm intrigued
May 23 09:43:16 <dahu> https://wincent.com/products/command-t
May 23 09:43:48 <canadaduane> nice
May 23 09:43:49 <dahu> sorry, a better link would be: https://wincent.com/blog/bringing-textmate-style-command-t-to-vim
May 23 09:44:17 <dahu> and some good Ericsson links: http://www.hooversbiz.com/2008/04/14/deliberate-practice-in-the-working-world/
May 23 09:44:50 <canadaduane> great! thanks
May 23 09:45:03 <canadaduane> wow, this is really good stuff, plugins
May 23 09:45:09 <canadaduane> I hadn't realized how much you could do
May 23 09:45:13 <dahu> learning vimscript has been my latest project
May 23 09:45:26 <dahu> but I will be learning to write Ruby plugins in vim too
May 23 09:45:41 <dahu> I intended to use Wincent's plugin as a guide
May 23 09:45:47 <dahu> perhaps we could learn each other :-)
May 23 09:46:09 <dahu> Ruby is my preferred language
May 23 09:47:08 <dahu> Damian Conway has a great vimscript series here: http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/linux/library/l-vim-script-1/index.html
May 23 09:47:17 <dahu> i'm eagerly awaiting number 6 - plugins :-)
May 23 09:48:14 <dahu> (aside: someone just posted this gem on #vim: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1218390/what-is-your-most-productive-shortcut-with-vim/1220118#1220118)
May 23 09:48:28 <canadaduane> nice
May 23 09:49:26 <canadaduane> so I have one more question for discussion
May 23 09:49:29 <dahu> ok
May 23 09:49:37 <canadaduane> What should we do about the infinite customizations that people make?
May 23 09:49:38 <canadaduane> for example,
May 23 09:49:58 <canadaduane> I realized that my practice file for NERD Comment includes a reference to the '?' key
May 23 09:50:04 <canadaduane> which I remapped to mean "toggle comment"
May 23 09:50:12 <canadaduane> in visual momde
May 23 09:50:13 <canadaduane> mode
May 23 09:50:17 <dahu> hmm... we *should* stick to vanilla vim
May 23 09:50:32 <dahu> I have seen this before (Blender), where all the tutorials are given on a vanilla install
May 23 09:50:45 <dahu> I think the Ubuntu community does something similar
May 23 09:50:47 <canadaduane> so no kata for plugins?
May 23 09:50:51 <dahu> no
May 23 09:50:53 <dahu> not saying that
May 23 09:51:01 <dahu> kata for plugins is fine
May 23 09:51:11 <canadaduane> so vanilla vim = (vim + plugins) without customizations
May 23 09:51:15 <dahu> yep
May 23 09:51:19 <canadaduane> k
May 23 09:51:21 <canadaduane> that makes sense
May 23 09:51:39 <dahu> if there are customisations, then the kata should be explicit about them
May 23 09:51:52 <dahu> say, given the map blah, use it to do blah
May 23 09:52:00 <canadaduane> Right
May 23 09:52:16 <canadaduane> so I will have to take that part out of the nerd comment kata
May 23 09:52:38 <dahu> but every kata that uses that map should mention it (either explicitly, or implicitly through a Dependencies chain)
May 23 09:53:04 <dahu> I wonder... can we auto-source the dependent kata...
May 23 09:53:11 <dahu> so the maps are inherited
May 23 09:53:36 <dahu> might shelve that idea for now.
May 23 09:53:40 <canadaduane> sounds complicated
May 23 09:54:40 <canadaduane> alright, so plan of attack
May 23 09:54:58 <canadaduane> Should we focus entirely on the kata first?
May 23 09:55:03 <dahu> yep
May 23 09:55:09 <dahu> we need to create a test case
May 23 09:55:14 <dahu> that we can throw rocks at
May 23 09:55:19 <dahu> that's our core
May 23 09:55:24 <dahu> let's get it working
May 23 09:55:30 <canadaduane> what do you mean by test case?
May 23 09:55:39 <dahu> a single kata
May 23 09:55:56 <dahu> that serves as a test of the engine: file format, supporting plugin code, etc
May 23 09:56:20 <dahu> like your suggested vimtutor kata
May 23 09:56:37 <canadaduane> question about terminology: is a "kata" a group of practices (i.e. a .kata file) or is a "kata" a single question/answer?
May 23 09:56:50 <dahu> kata = group
May 23 09:56:54 <dahu> i was thinking
May 23 09:57:00 <canadaduane> ok
May 23 09:57:14 <canadaduane> I see
May 23 09:57:14 <dahu> a kata contains a set of related steps
May 23 09:58:16 <dahu> ideally, related
May 23 09:58:39 <dahu> so - as your issue tracker says: we need our first kata
May 23 09:59:30 <dahu> we can also start building a plugin that supports kata mode
May 23 10:00:32 <dahu> the 'plugin' doesn't have to be fancy at this stage - it's nothing more than the practice.vim (renamed to kata.vim ?) that we've been playing with, along with some autocmd stuff so .kata files are recognised
May 23 10:00:44 <dahu> oh, and the syntax file
May 23 10:01:00 <canadaduane> yeah, that syntax file I wrote is pretty rudimentary
May 23 10:01:04 <canadaduane> I don't really know much about vim :)
May 23 10:01:07 <dahu> that's ok
May 23 10:01:15 <dahu> we can put what we have together for now
May 23 10:01:19 <dahu> and stepwise refine it
May 23 10:01:28 <dahu> release early, release often! :-)
May 23 10:01:41 <canadaduane> sounds like a good philosophy
May 23 10:01:46 <canadaduane> :)
May 23 10:02:00 <dahu> it's one of the OSS mantras
May 23 10:02:12 <dahu> ok
May 23 10:02:20 <dahu> so, which part do you want to focus on?
May 23 10:02:24 <canadaduane> yes, sorry, it's hard to communicate subtlety
May 23 10:02:45 <canadaduane> I'd be happy to start the first kata based on vimtutor
May 23 10:02:52 <canadaduane> I'm sure I will learn some more just by doing it
May 23 10:03:06 <dahu> cool. I look forward to doing your first kata. :-)
May 23 10:03:19 <dahu> I'll have a look at bundling the plugin code then
May 23 10:03:30 <canadaduane> ok
May 23 10:03:53 <canadaduane> Oh, and I'll switch the code and filenames we have so far to reflect the change to ".kata"
May 23 10:03:57 <dahu> any idea how long vimtutor takes a newbie to complete?
May 23 10:04:05 <dahu> I wonder how long it takes me to do...
May 23 10:04:12 <dahu> the name switch sounds good
May 23 10:04:14 <canadaduane> It took me about a half hour
May 23 10:04:29 <dahu> ok. I'll do it later and see how I go.
May 23 10:05:27 <dahu> so you'll need to have slightly less than the vimtutor file for your kata, yeah? So it stays around 20 mins...
May 23 10:05:49 <canadaduane> right
May 23 10:06:17 <dahu> just had a look - it says it should take 25-30 mins
May 23 10:06:48 <canadaduane> Is the license open enough that we can do what we want with it?
May 23 10:06:57 <dahu> for vimtutor?
May 23 10:07:03 <canadaduane> Should I begin our "story" ?
May 23 10:07:06 <canadaduane> yeah, vimtutor
May 23 10:07:21 <dahu> just looking now... no mention of license
May 23 10:07:31 <canadaduane> k
May 23 10:07:36 <canadaduane> probably the same as vim then
May 23 10:07:48 <dahu> probably
May 23 10:07:52 <canadaduane> GPL compatible
May 23 10:08:02 <dahu> three authors are mentioned at the bottom
May 23 10:08:05 <dahu> including Bram
May 23 10:08:18 <dahu> there's an email
May 23 10:08:32 <dahu> if you're worried, you could drop him a line - he might even like the kata idea...
May 23 10:09:00 <canadaduane> might as well, it would be courteous at the least
May 23 10:09:03 <dahu> bware, I mean, not Bram
May 23 10:09:12 <canadaduane> what's the email?
May 23 10:09:29 <dahu> bware@mines.colorado.edu
May 23 10:09:33 <canadaduane> thx
May 23 10:09:41 <dahu> np
May 23 10:14:08 <canadaduane> How will we license our project?
May 23 10:14:14 <canadaduane> GPL compatible?
May 23 10:14:20 <canadaduane> You mentioned CC
May 23 10:14:38 <canadaduane> I think there are many variants of CC if I'm not mistaken
May 23 10:15:05 <dahu> urgh... I'm not that familiar with the merits of the various licenses
May 23 10:15:10 <dahu> I don't mind GPL
May 23 10:15:29 <dahu> but I'm not sure if GPL3 is right for our purposes...
May 23 10:15:39 <canadaduane> Maybe we can do a dual MIT/GPL type license
May 23 10:15:40 <dahu> there are various CC licenses, yes
May 23 10:15:45 <dahu> sure
May 23 10:15:46 <canadaduane> "take your pick"
May 23 10:16:05 <dahu> as long as that works (from both camp
May 23 10:16:10 <dahu> 's perspectives)
May 23 10:16:14 <dahu> damn enter key :-)
May 23 10:16:48 <dahu> I'm flexible, so long as it's open source
May 23 10:16:51 <canadaduane> yes, as far as I understand, many projects do this nowadays
May 23 10:16:57 <canadaduane> makes both camps happy
May 23 10:16:58 <canadaduane> and me too
May 23 10:16:59 <dahu> cool. then that's fine.
May 23 10:17:09 <canadaduane> because then I can use it at work (as opposed to pure GPL projects... :) )
May 23 10:17:16 <dahu> agreed
May 23 10:17:51 <dahu> not that I think there will be any commercial derivatives of this work, but never say never, eh?
May 23 10:18:01 <canadaduane> right
May 23 10:19:52 <canadaduane> email sent
May 23 10:19:55 <dahu> cool
May 23 10:20:23 <canadaduane> DNS Error: Domain name not found
May 23 10:20:47 <dahu> i feared that when I saw it was an edu...
May 23 10:20:52 <canadaduane> well, I guess he'll be ok with us using it then
May 23 10:20:59 <canadaduane> although it means if we use it, we can't license using MIT
May 23 10:21:17 <canadaduane> I'll base my work off of it
May 23 10:21:19 <dahu> his full name is Robert K. Ware
May 23 10:21:20 <canadaduane> but do my own thing
May 23 10:21:43 <dahu> i think that's the best way - then it's wholly our work
May 23 10:21:49 <canadaduane> yeah
May 23 10:22:39 <dahu> nice email. pity he won't see it. :-)
May 23 10:22:40 <dahu> ok
May 23 10:22:53 <canadaduane> lol
May 23 10:22:54 <dahu> what is it, Saturday there?
May 23 10:22:58 <canadaduane> yes
May 23 10:23:13 <dahu> You'll like it. It was good.
May 23 10:23:16 <dahu> :-)
May 23 10:23:24 <canadaduane> ha
May 23 10:24:39 <dahu> well, time for some DP! :-) I'm gonna dive into Wincent's ruby plugin to see how he did it.
May 23 10:24:49 <canadaduane> super
May 23 10:24:51 <canadaduane> thanks for the chat
May 23 10:24:55 <dahu> same here
May 23 10:24:59 <dahu> have a lovely night
May 23 10:25:03 <canadaduane> it's been nice meeting you and beginning the work
May 23 10:25:11 <dahu> likewise
May 23 10:25:32 <dahu> let's stay in touch. My presence on github might be... low in the beginning.
May 23 10:25:43 <dahu> (not much of a public contributor yet)
May 23 10:25:51 <dahu> but my email contact should be fine
May 23 10:26:55 <dahu> (I was having difficulty setting up my ssh for github, so that's another thing I'll look into today)
May 23 10:27:12 <dahu> anyway, I'll let you go.
May 23 10:27:14 <dahu> bye for now
May 23 10:28:30 <canadaduane> take care
May 23 11:32:16 <canadaduane> Are you there?
May 23 11:33:07 <dahu> yep
May 23 11:33:17 <canadaduane> oh good. Question for you
May 23 11:33:35 <canadaduane> So in my original practice file, I put the answers *before* the question for one (kind of silly) reason
May 23 11:33:51 <dahu> i noticed that... I kinda like after. What's your reasoning?
May 23 11:33:53 <canadaduane> It was so I could skip from one question to the next by using "zj" (next fold) command
May 23 11:34:05 <dahu> we can code our way around that...
May 23 11:34:22 <canadaduane> I might like that
May 23 11:34:23 <canadaduane> but
May 23 11:34:31 <dahu> I think it makes more logical sense to seek the answer after the question
May 23 11:34:33 <canadaduane> it is kind of nice to force the user to get used to navigating folds
May 23 11:34:39 <dahu> that is true
May 23 11:34:40 <canadaduane> rather than some arbitrary "vim kata" command
May 23 11:34:54 <canadaduane> but yeah, the answer before the question is kind of weird
May 23 11:35:10 <canadaduane> so here's another possibility
May 23 11:35:17 <canadaduane> we could teach the search command / first
May 23 11:35:27 <canadaduane> and mark our questions with a common something
May 23 11:35:30 <canadaduane> like ~
May 23 11:35:38 <canadaduane> or > or whatever
May 23 11:35:45 <canadaduane> then doing "n" for next question
May 23 11:35:56 <canadaduane> this kind of makes sense to me
May 23 11:35:56 <dahu> yeah, I was thinking along those lines... I think you'll find the common /^\w will be sufficient
May 23 11:36:07 <canadaduane> since navigating search terms is much more common than navigating folds
May 23 11:36:12 <dahu> agreed
May 23 11:36:31 <dahu> we could number the steps in the kata...
May 23 11:36:37 <dahu> so /^3
May 23 11:36:52 <canadaduane> Well, but then you can't press "n" for next
May 23 11:36:56 <dahu> and /^\d
May 23 11:37:02 <canadaduane> I see
May 23 11:37:08 <canadaduane> I wish there were something easier
May 23 11:37:14 <dahu> let me have a look at it
May 23 11:37:27 <dahu> I'll get back to you later if I find a vimier way
May 23 11:37:28 <dahu> :-)
May 23 11:37:31 <canadaduane> since ^ and \d are not intuitive for first-time users (esp. if they've never used regexp)
May 23 11:37:37 <canadaduane> ok
May 23 11:37:38 <dahu> any other concerns?
May 23 11:37:47 <canadaduane> No, that was it
May 23 11:37:52 <canadaduane> I'm having fun with the first kata
May 23 11:37:56 <dahu> you might be able to "story" your way around the /^\d
May 23 11:37:59 <canadaduane> I'll check in what I have tonight before going to bed
May 23 11:38:01 <dahu> sweet
May 23 11:38:05 <dahu> I look forward to seeing it :-D
May 23 11:38:41 <dahu> as for the stories (given my lack of bloginess), I'll leave the narratives up to you. :-)
May 23 11:38:56 <canadaduane> heh, ok
May 23 11:39:03 <canadaduane> but it is open to your review
May 23 11:39:19 <dahu> cool
May 23 11:39:34 <canadaduane> hey, how about wrapping the numbers in ()?
May 23 11:39:36 <canadaduane> (1)
May 23 11:39:41 <canadaduane> then search using /(
May 23 11:39:59 <dahu> might work... depends on whether we have other () in the file
May 23 11:40:07 <dahu> not start of line bound, I mean
May 23 11:40:24 <dahu> is /^( that ugly?
May 23 11:40:35 <canadaduane> well, we can introduce that later
May 23 11:40:42 <canadaduane> but /( will get people started
May 23 11:41:11 <canadaduane> I like line numbers, but we may have to create a line re-numberer if it gets crazy
May 23 11:41:15 <dahu> heh... then /^< takes you to the squinting master and his answer ;-p
May 23 11:41:25 <canadaduane> e.g. if we have to insert something between Q2 and Q3 and there are 40 questions...
May 23 11:41:30 <dahu> i understand
May 23 11:41:31 <canadaduane> hehe
May 23 11:41:37 <dahu> that might not be too hard
May 23 11:41:41 <canadaduane> k
May 23 11:41:50 <dahu> i think i've done similar work for asciidoc numbered lists in the past
May 23 11:41:59 <dahu> i'll dig through my old code and have a look
May 23 11:42:10 <canadaduane> cool
May 23 11:42:15 <canadaduane> thanks for the dialog
May 23 11:42:16 <canadaduane> ttyl
May 23 11:42:25 <dahu> same here. bye
May 23 12:26:31 <canadaduane> ok, headed to bed. Files checked in.
May 23 12:27:06 <dahu> sweet. have a good night. :-)
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May 23 12:44:09 * canadaduane has quit (Client Quit)